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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 2, 2012 15:54:54 GMT -5
For losing Starling Marte I'd like to receive 2 picks next season. I request Padres 2013 first and a compensation pick following the first round.
Reasoning: When I traded for Marte I thought that I was acquiring a top 50 prospect who was on the verge of making the majors. Padres pick will hopefully give me a solid prospect, although he won't likely be of Martes caliber or as close to the majors as he was. The reason I request a compensation first, instead of Padres other first round pick, is that it was under different Padres management when the error occurred, so I wouldn't want to fully penalize the current owner.
If Padres accepts this compensation please post your agreement to it. If not post a counter offer. If an agreement cannot be reached, another LM will decide the appropriate compensation.
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Post by bianchiveloce on Aug 4, 2012 9:27:18 GMT -5
I will not give you anything. Why should I be penalized, partially or fully, for something I did not do?
If the league wants to give you compensation, they can award you a pick(s) in the Sandwich Round(s).
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2012 11:12:42 GMT -5
What did you get instead of Marte? Your description is accurate...Not sure what the problem is.
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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 4, 2012 12:21:08 GMT -5
You will be penalized because even though you yourself did not do anything wrong, your team has benefitted by acquiring talent through trading players that were never owned by your team. In other words your team has improved because of this without giving up anything that they actually owned. However, as you said, it was not your fault that this happened and that is why you would not need to pay the full compensation. Feel free to counter what I asked for if you feel like it is unreasonable, but no matter what you'll need to end up giving something. It's not like I'm happy with this either, I would much rather have a solid young player rather then a couple of draft picks next year, who wouldn't even be able to help me until late 2014 at the earliest, if the prospects even pan out. But shit happens, so we just need to deal with it. I'm not going to accept just a compensation draft pick though, as that clearly is not even close to equal to Marte in value.
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Post by bianchiveloce on Aug 5, 2012 0:39:27 GMT -5
You will be penalized because even though you yourself did not do anything wrong, your team has benefitted by acquiring talent through trading players that were never owned by your team. In other words your team has improved because of this without giving up anything that they actually owned. However, as you said, it was not your fault that this happened and that is why you would not need to pay the full compensation. Feel free to counter what I asked for if you feel like it is unreasonable, but no matter what you'll need to end up giving something. It's not like I'm happy with this either, I would much rather have a solid young player rather then a couple of draft picks next year, who wouldn't even be able to help me until late 2014 at the earliest, if the prospects even pan out. But shit happens, so we just need to deal with it. I'm not going to accept just a compensation draft pick though, as that clearly is not even close to equal to Marte in value. I will give you nothing. If you want compensation, you should petition the league for a Sandwich pick(s). |
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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 5, 2012 11:52:57 GMT -5
I've already explained why you need to give compensation. If you refuse, it will be forcibly taken from you and you can leave the league. I'm being very reasonable by allowing you to counter my offer if you don't think it's fair.
It's like in college football, where universities can be penalized for recruiting violations even after the coaches who committed the violations have left the schools. Even though you are the current owner of the Padres you do not represent the entire organization. They existed before you were here and they will exist afterwards.
Think about it like this: Say I was to trade a bunch of players that I don't own, and nobody catches it. Then I leave the league. Once a new owners takes over, somebody realizes it and says something. The new owners team has gained a lot of talent without giving anything up. You think it's then fair for that owner to be allowed to keep everything and not be penalized at all?
My point is that even though you currently represent the Padres and have done nothing wrong, you don't represent the whole organization from the beginning, and your team did something wrong before you were here. That is why you must pay compensation. I hope you still do not refuse, as that will not lead to a happy outcome for you.
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Post by White Sox GM (Michael) on Aug 5, 2012 20:47:29 GMT -5
To reiterate; Anthony, it's not your fault. However, your organization has benefited from trading an unowned player. Subsequently, you must compensate for that unfair advantage.
You claim that you shouldn't be penalized from something that wasn't your fault; however, you shouldn't be rewarded for something you weren't involved in.
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Post by bianchiveloce on Aug 6, 2012 10:05:09 GMT -5
I believe I made my position clear. I will give you nothing. I did not make this mistake and will not take ownership for this mistake.
If you want compensation, you should petition the league for a Sandwich pick(s).
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Post by Bryan (ex WAS) on Aug 6, 2012 14:51:29 GMT -5
These are all the trades involved with Starling Marte that I could find
A's trade:
3b Kevin Kouzmanoff- 1m(3)
2011 4th rd pick
Padres trade:
OF Starling Marte-Prospect
SP Austin Adams-Prospect
It's obvious A's wins this trade but what do you see no top prospect dealt for Marte or 2 1st round picks.
Cleveland Gets:
Starling Marte
3rd Round Pick 2012 TB
2 mil paid of Alex Rodriguez's 2012 contract
Cardinals Get:
Gillermo Pimentel
Travis Snider
Snider has not shown up and might neve Pimentel at time was like a top 15 prospect in the Mariners system. So once again Marte not traded for anything close to a 1st round pick or even 2.
Tigers Get:
Starling Marte (prospect)
Robbie Ross (prospect)
Indians Get:
Matt Joyce - $1M (5)
Joyce for Robbie Ross is enough in this trade marte makes it where Tigers wins this trade. Once again no 1st Round Picks, and no top prospects trade for Starling Marte.
Tigers Get:
Michael Pineda - $.5M (2)
Braves Get:
RA Dickey - $4.25M
Brett Jackson (prospect)
Tigers Pay $3M of Dickey in 2012
I think this is the real reason why Tigers wont the picks but this was the very beginning of the season and he was saying how he made trade cause he had Marte as backup well he was gonna deal Marte for a 2 month rental of Bourn. So him making this trade has nothing to do with Marte anymore when he was gonna deal him for a rental.
Tigers Get:
Michael Bourn - $5.25M (6)
Rays Get:
Starling Marte - $0.3M (1)
I know this trade was vetoed but just wanted to show Marte was gonna be traded for a 2 month rental obviously Tigers did not need 2 1st round picks for him or else he would have never agreed to this trade a 2 month rental or 2 1st round picks? I know anyone in here would rather have the 2 1st.
I know I have no part in this but what Tigers is asking for is way way off. If Starling Marte was worth 2 1st Round picks he would have been traded for 2 1st Round picks. He would not have been in a trade with Bourn,Joyce,Snider,or Kouzmanoff. Another thing he is asking for a top 7 pick next year Marte was not drafted at all he may have been like a 2nd rounder if he was maybe later maybe sooner no one knows. As far as im concerned the most he should get is a mid level spect or a 1st round sandwich pick given to him by the league not Padres. If he dont agree to that then I will trade for Matt Joyce just let him have him back and he can keep robbie ross.
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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 6, 2012 15:56:21 GMT -5
You can't compare trades 2 years ago to trades now with Marte Bryan, players values change. The same can be said for trades even 6 months ago. I would have traded 2 first round picks for Bourn as well. Yes he'd just be a rental but he's one of the top OFers in the game, which is a pretty major rental. Look at what the Brewers got for Zack Greinke as a 2 month rental. Just because a player is a rental doesn't mean that you can get them for nothing.
The fact that Marte wasn't drafted doesn't mean anything... He was an international free agent. Plenty of the best players in baseball were signed as IFAs. Comparing him to a drafted player is ludicrous. If Marte were to be put back in the draft this season he would be a top-5 pick.
As for the trade where I dealt Jackson, I later became ok with moving Marte after I acquired Taveras, one of the top OF prospects in baseball. If I hadn't traded for him I wouldn't have been looking to move Marte.
When I traded for Marte, he was already a top prospect on the verge of making the majors. You really think that a sandwich pick is equal compensation to that? A sandwich pick will give me a top-200 prospect, if I'm lucky, and wouldn't be able to help me until late 2014 at the earliest. If you want to give me back Matt Joyce I'd be fine with that, but I'd also want a sandwich pick in addition as I've already given up over half a season of Joyce while waiting for Marte to make it to the majors. So even if I get Joyce back I will have lost half a season of production for nothing, which I'd need to be compensated for.
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Post by Bryan (ex WAS) on Aug 6, 2012 16:55:21 GMT -5
These trades were made in 2011 and if he has never been traded for a top pick or top spect what makes you think you deserve to get that for him? Yeah Marte has improved since then but he still has not gotten traded for what your asking for you cant put that high of a price on something that has yet got that much. Also the Giants are major league team they are not a fantasy team and if you look up anywhere everyone will say the Giants lost that trade big time. When you traded Joyce you said in the post you did not even use him as a starter so tell me how you lost half a season of production.
So pretty much what im saying you can't put that type of a price for someone that no one has gotten in my mind he has been dealt more than 4 times and yet no one has gotten close to what you want right now. I propose you take the compensation 1st round or I will trade for Joyce and give him to you so your happy.
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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 6, 2012 17:05:22 GMT -5
Not sure why exactly you're talking about the Giants as I never mentioned them...?
And at the time I didn't need Joyce as a starter but since then I've made other moves and I since could've used him. And yeah, obviously no one has gotten what I want now, as his value is at a high point right now. I like how you conveniently left out your recent trade for Marte and a few other prospects where you gave up Jimenez, Davis, 2 firsts, and more. And everyone still said that you won that trade. From what I've heard, you're also asking for a ton for Marte if anyone asks for him. So yeah, please explain to me how exactly he's equal to a compensation first? If you really believe that, I'll give you a first round pick next year for him (which is more then a comp first). So if you wouldn't take that then don't ask me to take less than that for him.
I'm willing to take Joyce and a comp 2nd for him. Not gonna go lower then that though.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2012 17:27:15 GMT -5
Nats previous trades don't matter because they may not represent his true value. I mean if you base it off that you could say he's as valuable as Kevin Kousmanoff or Michael Bourn. Two big differences in value. He should get what his equal value is now, and he is worth a top 10 pick considering he is a top young talent.
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Post by White Sox GM (Michael) on Aug 6, 2012 17:35:35 GMT -5
Why is Bryan giving Joyce? I'm not following.
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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 6, 2012 17:41:53 GMT -5
Why is Bryan giving Joyce? I'm not following. I wasn't really clear on that either. But as long as I get compensated I won't complain about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 13:19:25 GMT -5
Has any progress been made on this? I think next time bryan should stay out of it because now this has hit a brick wall and gotten nowhere. Why would bryan give up matt joyce this situation has nothing to do with bryan he didnt make the mistake ANTHONY needs to give something up for his organizations mistake.As far as exactly what i do agree maybe 2 2013 first rounds comp round or not maybe a little excessive but Marte is a top 30 spect and now hes in MLB so you cant place equal value on a top draft pick to a top spect because the top pick needs a few years to develop and theres busts all the time
IF you ask me what should happen here i think its very very clear
Padres lose their 2013 first and the league gives ALex a comp 2nd rd the 2013 padres 1st is going to give you a top10 draft pick and for the most part those guys are right on par with martes value even if its a few years from now the comp 2nd is really icing on the cake because if you were to ask me A TOP 30 SPECT CONTRIBUTING NOW or a top10 pick and comp 2nd id take marte every time
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Post by Tigers GM (Alex) on Aug 28, 2012 21:19:12 GMT -5
I've been meaning to make a post here for the last few days. Thanks Jimmy.
Bryan, what's the deal? Are you still going to give me Joyce or not? If not I will take my comp from Padres.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 21:28:06 GMT -5
alex i think it makes alot more sense for you to only deal with this through padres idk how bryan got involved and i dont know why this hasnt been clarified earlier
bryan has nothing to do with PADRES trading a player he doesnt own or trading him twice i forget the issue but to me and in my humble opinion lol i think its only fair and right to the league that padres has to give up whatever it may be because its no fair to say reds that he had to lose things when mike or you couldve stepped in and compensated me lol
i think my suggestion for compensation is probaly the best compromise where going to find and if anthony still has a issue giving up the compensation then unfortunately its just going to have to be taken against his will i hope that he would smarten up and just give what is needed as this is not a new thing for everyone and if it was me or you or anyone theyd have to lose things not some random other owner stepping in and giving things up idk why bryan offered to do that but as we all know bryan does say things that dont make sense all the time lol so lets just forget bryan ever mentioned that and you get
padres 2013 1st rd and a compensation 2nd round for 2013 anything more then that is being a tad greedy and bryan giving you joyce makes absolutely no sense
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2012 21:30:30 GMT -5
once again i cant make a ruling or something and its not up to me lol
but as a person who usually cares about every issue in the league i think my suggestion could be used or built upon to find the final solution i didnt want to make it sound like i was in charge here lol it would be mike who finally makes a ruling as you yourself are involved in the matter
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Post by White Sox GM (Michael) on Aug 29, 2012 6:26:53 GMT -5
Leave Bryan outta this
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